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In 1948, Vogue published its 658-page Book of Etiquette, compiled by editor Millicent Fenwick, featuring how-tos, dos and don’ts, and the proper politesse for a remarkably varied set of scenarios. But as Fenwick writes in the introduction: “Etiquette is based on tradition, and yet it can change.” Some 75 years later, Oh, Behave! is a new monthly Vogue column in which experts sound off on today’s ever-evolving social etiquette.
This month’s column is devoted to love, relationships, and intimacy—and get ready to clutch your pearls, because we go there. Our first guest providing their insights is Esther Perel, the Belgian-American psychotherapist whose debut book Mating in Captivity catapulted her to worldwide recognition, as her keenly empathetic and nuanced teachings on all things love served as a kind of gospel to those seeking sexual or emotional enlightenment. We catch Perel in the middle of a national tour, “An Evening With Esther Perel: The Future of Relationships, Love Desire.”
Paired with Perel is Eileen Kelly, the 28-year-old mental and sexual health educator and blogger previously described as the “millennial Dr. Ruth.” Her podcast, Going Mental, has earned a loyal following for its unvarnished, unfiltered approach to discussing sex and sex-adjacent topics, as well offering candid meditations on her own mental health journey. Her first Going Mental guest was Amanda Knox, and after a hiatus, her show is back this Wednesday.
Below, the two break down some long-held “rules” surrounding the art of amour.
On Dating
Vogue: Is sleeping together on a first date a no-no?
Perel: I mean, the first thing I would say is that we are rewriting the rule book as we go—so, what do we mean by a date? Is this somebody who we hope we will see again? How do we see sex? If we experience ourselves as somebody who bonds through physical intimacy, but at the same time, we don’t have any sense that this may be an emotional bonding experience, then maybe it’s not such a great idea. But sometimes, why not? It could be a fun adventure.
Kelly: I don’t believe there’s a hard, black-and-white rule. I personally don’t like to sleep with people on the first date because I’m very sensitive, and I get attached easily. I think as soon as you feel comfortable. If you look at old dating advice books or even Sex and the City, it’s like, “You need to sleep with him on the seventh date!” and I just don’t believe in that.
How long should you wait before being intimate with your partner?
Perel: There are no hard and fast rules here, but I think what you ask yourself is: What’s happening here? What’s the fantasy? Did we just meet on an island somewhere and is this probably going to only stay on the island? Or is this the beginning of a love story? In the United States, people like explicit statements, contracts, and things that make your expectations clear—there’s a kind of contractual mentality. In other cultures, it’s much more intuitive. Here is my answer: You can have sex, and it’s not intimate at all. You can also have just one long kiss, and it is more intimate than anything else you could do.
Kelly: You also have to know yourself and the intention behind it—are you sleeping with them to try to rope them in because you are great in bed? Are you trying to put it off because that’s your prize? Are you using that as leverage in the relationship? Which is fine, women do that—that’s the world we live in. I’m into attachment theory and just knowing yourself and how to protect your own mental health.
What should you do if you receive an unsolicited nude?
Perel: The thing with sex is that the same gestures can be delightful or disgusting. If you are into the person, then there is no red flag. But if you are not into the person, you will think it’s gross. You’ll think: What the hell? Where do you think this is gonna land? So if it’s somebody you want to stay in touch with, you just say, “not my kind of art” or “absent aux abonnés” as they say in French. It translates to something like “unavailable delivery, return to sender.”
Kelly: Block?! Yeah, block. Is it over Instagram? Is it over text message? Over a dating app? I’m a pretty blunt person, I would just either block them or say, “I don’t want this. What made you even think I wanted this?”
How can you politely kick out a one-night stand?
Perel: I think I’d say, “I had a lovely time. I will remember this fondly. I hope you do, too.” Then you send a little note a few hours later about how much you enjoyed the meeting the night before. “Who knows where we will meet again?” But my sense is that it would be good for two people to know in advance that this is a hookup.
Kelly: “I have to hop on a work call.” “I have to go meet my friend for coffee.” There’s a safety aspect of being a young woman, especially if someone’s in your apartment and in your space; it sucks that it is this way, but you don’t want to offend. If you say, “Hey, you gotta go,” I’ve seen men get scary and freak out, so I would just prioritize my safety. If I need to come up with a little white lie that makes me feel more comfortable to get them out of my house, that’s what I would do.
Is it ever okay to ask for your partner’s body count?
Perel: I mean, what is it you’re asking? Is it safe? Do you have an STD? Are you promiscuous? What exactly do you want to know when you ask for body count? Do you wanna know that you’re special? The question you’re not asking is the answer I will give to the body count question.
Kelly: I’m a curious person, but I like to know who my partners have dated or slept with, not how many. There’s a way to approach the topic where it’s not about a specific number—like, “Do we know anyone that we’ve mutually slept with?” So it becomes more about intimacy and getting to know your partner better versus a number. But also, I don’t separate my sexual health from my general health, so I’m pretty quick to ask, “Hey, when was the last time you got tested?”
On Committed Relationships
How do you tell your partner you want to spice things up in the bedroom?
Perel: You don’t tell by talking about how you don’t have enough sex and how boring it is, or how it’s always the same. I’ve never seen a couple wanting more sex from talking about that. But it is often one of the main things people do—complain about what’s missing rather than create something. One thing I have is a card game, which is a game of stories. You play the stories. “I’m curious about blank. A text message I fantasize about receiving is blank.” It helps couples to enter into each other’s erotic universes; I find that for a lot of people, it’s helped to spark things up.”
Kelly: I have definitely dated guys where I wanted to try new things. I’m a very sexual person, but I think you have to think about their egos and not bruise them or hurt someone’s feelings—because you’re ultimately not going to get what you want out of the situation. I would say, “Hey babe, I read this article, or I watched this on TikTok, and they were talking about trying this thing—I would love to try it out with you.” Make it about your desires and needs versus what your partner or the relationship is lacking.
How do you introduce “equipment” into the bedroom?
Perel: The first thing I would say is you don’t have the conversation in the bedroom; have the conversation while you are on a walk or on a drive—when you’re not necessarily face-to-face, but side-by-side. Say, “Does that ever interest you?” Or say, “You know, the same way that when you cook and if I add some salt, that doesn’t mean that your dish wasn’t delicious.” Find metaphors. I think that often, one talks more easily about sex when one talks about food.
Kelly: Most men, in my experience, are comfortable with this stuff. You just have to ask, “Hey, would you feel comfortable if we used a vibrator?” Or “Would you use a vibrator on me?” There’s a way to inch into things. “You can’t make me orgasm” is very different from, “Hey, I think this is hot, and we should explore this.”
How do you introduce a third partner into your relationship?
Perel: I could write a whole book on that question alone. There’s a whole conversation to be had about non-monogamy. I think I need to know what your definition of a couple is… but if you just go straight to the point and don’t beat around the bush, say it as it is, and use American pragmatism to questions surrounding eroticism, you miss a huge part of it. Sometimes, the conversation in and of itself makes people grow curious about things they may never have thought about.
Kelly: You have to be extremely secure in your relationship and lay out all the possibilities of what could go wrong in a threesome. You’re just introducing jealousy, insecurity, and all of these things into the relationship, so if you’re not on a super solid foundation, I think it can get messy. I have a hard line: No threesomes when I’m in a serious relationship. I have been the third in relationships, and it never ends well. It’s fine for me because I’m the third, but I’ve seen people break up over them more than twice, three times.
How soon is too soon to ask your partner if they want children?
Perel: It’s all in the context. It’s all in the story. Relationships are stories. If this is a fling, don’t start talking about kids. It’s irrelevant. If you’re thinking about a chapter of your life with that person, and this is important to you, then, of course, have that conversation. And then the conversation sometimes is, “Would you want to be part of raising kids?” Because people come with children too… For people who think they’ll change their partner’s mind about children, listen to what people say to you. Don’t go into magical thinking.
Kelly: Oh gosh. First date? I went on a blind date two nights ago. I am personally not ready for children yet, but I said, “I want four kids and I want to get married before I have kids.” I also think it’s just getting to know someone. It doesn’t necessarily mean I’m saying, “I want four kids with you.” If I meet someone and they want no kids and never want to get married, that’s something I would prefer to know on the first date.
On Friendship
If you find out your friend’s partner is having an affair, do you tell them?
Perel: I would hope that if you have a good friend, you will have had the opportunity to ask them as part of a general conversation one day how they would like that handled. So the question is not, if you find out your friend’s partner is having an affair, do you tell them? But what do you know about your friend that tells you what you should do?
Kelly: I absolutely would. Am I good friends with this person? I couldn’t live with myself if I knew my friend’s partner was cheating on them, I think that secret would eat me alive. But I’m going to make sure I have hard proof that it’s actually happening.
Can you ever date someone who has dated a friend?
Perel: It depends. How long was the relationship? How did the relationship end? Are you left with a bitter taste, and you didn’t really want your friend to be with that person? Or did you leave that person because it just wasn’t your fit, and therefore, it’s neutral territory? Or that person was a real fill-in-the-blank and that would be a terrible thing for you to do? I think the code of girl code has to be a little bit more elaborate.
Kelly: I think you can absolutely date someone your friend dated—with their permission. You don’t want to start on the foot of dishonesty—hooking up with a person and hiding it from your friend. But I think everyone has certain exes that are off-limits and respecting that is important. I would say I have one or two ex-boyfriends where, if any of my friends hooked up with them, I would be like, “Okay, you’re not my friend.”
Can you ever tell a friend you don’t like their partner?
Perel: This is Dan Ariely’s work: When friends say, “We knew, we saw, we felt,” and nobody actually says anything. That person says, “Why didn’t you say?” It’s not unwise to listen to our friends.
Kelly: If you don’t like someone’s partner, a lot of the time, it’s not worth saying anything. If they treat them badly; if they’re abusive; if they’re cheating on them, that’s when you can bring it up to your friend or disclose. But if it’s just that you don’t like their personality—which, we’ve all been there—is it really worth it if they treat your friend well and your friend is happy?
Can you give your friends unsolicited dating advice?
Perel: If you’re like me, you do. But I’ll say, “Can I tell you what I think? Because you know, it’s not my place. But at the same time, I can’t just watch this.” I have two sons who are dating, so I have practiced this—it’s the mother’s role. I have to practice the unsolicited dating advice and the solicited!
Kelly: I think that’s a part of friendship. You’re kind of in it together, especially when you’re single at the same time. Sometimes, you need someone to hold a mirror up to you. I mean, I know best, so they should listen to me—just kidding!
On Uncoupling
Is there a polite way to break up with your partner?
Perel: Yes, there are ways to break up that are kind and that are amicable and that recognize that people have come to a crossroads, where both people wish each other well. But it’s not the most common, partly because we have this notion that lasting means good and breaking up is a failure, which I think is a mistake. That’s a short answer to a big question.
Kelly: In person, and giving them the reason why. Everyone needs closure. The worst thing you could do to someone is not give them a reason; our minds are always going to go to the worst-case scenario. That’s why I don’t respect people who ghost—you’re putting that person through much more chaos internally than if you had just ended things. They’ll think: Am I bad in bed? Am I not pretty enough? Did I say something stupid on our last date that turned him off? You have a conversation. In person. That’s my hard rule.
How do you define conscious uncoupling?
Perel: Even when you consciously uncouple, even when it’s mutual, it’s about loss and the breaking up of a relationship. Uncoupling is a loss. It’s grief. It’s unfulfilled wishes. It’s unmet needs. It’s dreams that won t materialize. And it’s gratitude for what one had and acknowledgment of what each brought and how much people gave and enriched each other’s lives. It’s accountability for what you did and what you didn’t do, and the responsibility you take in the ending of a relationship.
Kelly: In the way that Gwyneth Paltrow meant, the terminology was that they had this invisible string of having children together. It’s very different than if, let’s say, you’ve never lived together or you’re not tied together financially. I think that it’s easier to consciously uncouple if you have a reason to stay in each other’s lives.
How much time should you spend with your ex after uncoupling?
Perel: It depends if people have new partners; if people accepted the breakup; if people are still with a lingering sadness, and basically every time they meet, it hurts. How much have they closed that chapter? The right balance is like how much you should eat. Depends a little bit on how you digest, or how hungry you are, no? I go back to the food metaphor because it’s so concrete.
Can you be friends with an ex?
Kelly: It is very specific to the relationship, and I think it’s a spectrum of how deeply in love you were. And are you jealous? Are you not jealous? Do you feel possessive? Do you not feel possessive? If I was deeply, deeply in love with them, could I immediately be friends with them, like, “Let’s go get a coffee and you can tell me about your new girlfriend?” Fuck no!
