Eye Mama at the PhotoVogue Festival | PhotoVogue Festival 2023: What Makes Us Human? Image in the Age of A.I.

Okay, thank you, thank you.

So I m super happy to be here with these wonderful women,

and first of all with Karni,

who has become a really a great friend, a sister.

And I remember when she reached out to me,

that was 2020, and on Instagram,

and she told me about the idea that she had

to make this project, which wasn t at the beginning,

wasn t gonna be a book.

I mean it was an idea and I thought it was brilliant

and she needed all the encouragement in the world,

and you know, it was the pandemic

and it was tough for all of us.

I think it was even tougher for women,

women with kids who needed to work to attend to their kids

and do everything on their own from home.

And I think this project is so important on so many levels.

It speaks about care.

It speaks about what means to be human, you know?

And all these wonderful women here,

they re just a part of this incredible wealth of artists

that are all around the world

and have been humble in sharing their vision.

I think the other reason why this is so important

is that unfortunately there is this misconception

and this representation of maternity

just has something beautiful,

and you know, you has to be so happy when you have a kid,

and it s like, and what about the exhaustion?

What about, you know, you go through a mental things

and it s not all, you know, roses and flowers.

And I feel that we need

to say things the way they are, you know?

And of course being a mom must be like

such an incredible experience.

But let s see the nuances of it

and let s see that maybe it s not all roses and flowers

I were saying.

So I really wanna thank all of you for sharing your stories

and Karni for having this incredible idea.

And Karni is a force of nature.

She really is.

She s never tired.

She just goes and she knows what she wants

and she caress about the others.

And you know, she s the perfect example

of taking away one s own s ego

to let the beauty of a project shine, you know?

And I think that s a lot of everything

I ve done in my career is about this,

is about ego is a good thing cause it keeps you going,

but it can t be the main thing.

It can t be the only thing.

And when you are able to take a step back

and let other shine, this is so amazing.

So you put your talent and your energy

in service of other people s talent.

This is really amazing.

So I really want to thank you Karni for this.

I wanna do a little round of everyone.

It s gonna say their names and where they re from,

and then we re gonna start with you Karni.

And you re gonna tell me, how did this project came to life?

What is Eye Mama?

So maybe we start there.

Name and where you re from.

Hi, my name is Chiara Cunzolo

and I m from Livorno, Tuscany.

Hello everyone, I m Eveline Smolders and I m from Belgium.

Hi, I m Si Wachsmann and I m from Berlin.

Hi, I am Karni Arieli and I m from UK Bristol.

Hi, I m Malin Westermann and I m from Norway.

I feel like it s the revision.

[panelists laughing]

And now we all sing.

Hi, I m Amy Woodward

and I m from the Sunshine Coast in Australia,

or Gubbi Gubbi Country.

Hi, I m Iris Munoz, I m from Spain, Madrid.

Hi, I am Margarita Loba Amadio, I m from here, from Milan.

Oh wow, that s great.

Okay, so thank you, thank you really all of you for joining

and being here with us.

And Karni, tell me, how did you come out with this idea?

So it was lockdown in 2020

and I was home with my two kids.

I m a filmmaker and photographer.

I live in Bristol, I ve got two boys.

And at first I was quite sick.

Then I picked up my camera and started recovering

and taking pictures of what was happening around me.

I guess photographers deal with reality in that way.

That s how we digest what s happening in the world.

And I was photographing my boys, and on social media,

you know, while I was scrolling through,

I follow a lot of women, non-binary artists,

the female gaze.

And as I was scrolling, it felt to me

like I was looking through these peep holes

all around the world.

All these photographers who were usually looking outwardly

were suddenly looking introspectively,

turning the camera on themselves.

And a lot of these were women

and a lot of these were mothers.

So I was getting this kind of point of view in history

in a historical time

that I hadn t really seen before.

Like what if we could look at the Second World War

through the lens of women and mothers?

We can t because it doesn t exist.

But traditionally men go out, the photojournalist,

I mean it s changing now of course, but slowly.

And I saw this opportunity.

I ve never really, you know, I make films and photography,

but usually it s about my own experiences in the world.

And for once my kid was just turning five

and I felt like I was just able to look beyond my bubble.

And I had this idea to collect these images

because it just felt like it was going to waste.

I was seeing all these beautiful images by the photographers

who are around me now and many more.

And nobody seemed to be paying it

the attention I felt it deserved.

And I looked around online to see

if they were examples of the, what I call now the mama gaze.

And there wasn t.

Like there s one book called Home Truths from 2013

that has a limited amount of artist mothers

looking at motherhood.

There s, you know, there s other historical books

that look at humanity, but in this way

it hadn t been portrayed.

And I was like, this seems like an important topic

that s completely overlooked.

And I was part of PhotoVogue as a photographer.

I knew Alessia s work

and I think I really, on an instinct,

a complete weird, that I can t even explain

cause we didn t know each other.

But I liked the way PhotoVogue

was very inclusive and diverse

and I felt I hadn t curated before,

I needed some something to model it after.

And I think what women can do really well

and people and humans can do and should do

is elevate each other.

Like women elevating other women,

artists elevating other artists.

So often and now more than ever,

we re seeing duality and division.

But I think through helping each other out

and highlighting each other, you know,

I was giving a platform to the Eye Mamas

and to photography I was seeing and collecting on Instagram,

and Alessia was empowering me

and then showing it in PhotoVogue or in the articles.

So it s this onward chain of visibility

that was crucial to bring any change in any narrative,

you know, and if we re the storytellers, you know,

if social media is the cave walls, let s say, you know,

mothers and women have to be part of that storytelling,

and unseen narratives, overlooked narratives.

And we wanted to make it very inclusive,

just like PhotoVogue, I think, we aimed from the start,

and Alessia guided me through that too,

when she thought it was a good idea.

And I knew that I had to make this project

the opposite of most projects that I ve seen before,

not including PhotoVogue,

but I wanted it to be a very broad description

of what mama meant.

So that s why I used the word mama,

so that it s anyone who sees herself as a mama or carer

and that includes narratives that are more unseen,

like IVF or miscarriage, single mom, same sex couples,

you know, all the different variations, adoption, fostering.

And so that s less limitations

and you can show more work that way.

And the other thing was that I wanted these women

to be self-described photographers.

So it can be photo journalists

and art photographers, portrait photographers,

and well known as well as lesser known

because I wanted to try and do some leveling

of the playing field,

which I felt was really necessary

to showcase enough strong work and to bring a narrative

that was inclusive enough and broad enough.

And how did you, thank you Karni.

And you know, I like what you re saying,

and again, you know, here the concept of mama,

it s not just about really concerning motherhood

and having kids.

I think the focus here

is about taking care of someone, you know?

And I think of like, for instance,

I took care of my mom for more than 10 years

in a bed, you know?

And she couldn t move.

So it has to do again

with this idea of taking care and doing a step back.

And so this becomes like a metaphor, you know,

of what we are all working for, you know,

this idea of taking care,

and I feel, I don t know, I don t have babies,

but maybe when you do,

again, it is a way to work on our ego, I think, right?

Cause the baby comes first.

It s like, it s not the what can you do?

So I would like to ask all of you,

how did you discover about Eye Mama

and also maybe what you learn through it,

and if somehow freed you

to make you feel maybe even more normal

with your insecurities and your problems

that weren t so seen before, you know?

I don t know how we wanna do this.

If someone maybe, I mean, I don t wanna pick names.

So again, maybe we start from, yes.

I actually don t remember how I knew about-

None of us remember, right?

Maybe somebody told me you should look it up,

and I did, and sent you some files,

and you answered me positively, so.

Actually I had a very beautiful experience with being a mom.

And during the COVID restrictions, I was pregnant.

I actually discovered that I was pregnant

like three days before the first lockdown.

And at first I was like, oh.

But then actually me and my family,

we have a very, very flexible and adaptable life.

So we really took the best out of this disaster.

And so I didn t, so my need wasn t to be understood,

but I wanted to contribute to a narrative

and to a look that came from daily truth.

So that was my thing,

not really about speaking about pain.

There was of course, like several times.

It s really interesting hear you say that

because actually I think her images are quite subversive.

We were talking about this before,

when we made the book from the project,

one of her images wasn t allowed to come into the book.

So think about how much dissonance there is

on the narrative of motherhood

where if you re not the Madonna,

or it s not the perfect image, or it s not soft,

or it s not what society has deemed it to be,

it feels too dark, too subversive.

And I think mothers owning their own story,

and artist mothers for that, you know,

owning their own story is really powerful

because there s some kind of undercurrent.

And I think the mama gaze is very much about that,

an undercurrent to your work,

and a lot of the work in the book, which is about duality,

it s about the darkness and the light

in humanity and in care.

It can t all be, you know, shiny.

So I think that duality really comes through,

through the work.

And I m really attracted by this, yeah, duplicity.

And so my work always comes from

a position of observation and presence with my kid

and my, you know, daily photography practice with them.

So yeah, with the Eye Mama movement,

can we call it like this?

So what it gave me was a sense of community,

international community about this subject.

That is something that for me is very simple to think,

to also to talk about, no taboos.

No, but it s really beautiful to be here

and meet all of you because we didn t meet before,

we didn t know each other s spaces

and each other s stories, but now we do,

and I m really, really happy about it.

So thank you.

Thank you, thank you for sharing.

And you?

Well, I don t remember neither when we started.

I don t remember anything.

It s just like a blur.

I remember, I really remember it.

Someone s gonna tell us the truth, but most of us don t.

I think it s also because it was very organic.

So I reached out, some reached back to me,

someone referred another woman, you know?

It grew, I think a little bit,

it felt very female in its nature as a project.

It was more like an organism.

I don t know how to explain it,

but it was like this kind of spiderweb

where women referred other women or mothers.

And sometimes I sought people out

and sometimes people referred back to me.

So I didn t even know myself.

Neither.

I was a bit of a photographer before the COVID situations

and I was pregnant when we have to list,

and when I started to take picture from me,

from my postpartum

and I needed to share with other moms,

this is why, what had happened, you know?

I started to be in Instagram

watching Karni s pictures and other moms.

And I remember that I could fit,

that was the same situation could be mine.

So that is why I think that this book

is so necessary for all moms,

because I could be each of them, so.

What was your experience as a mother,

as an artist mother

taking pictures of your kids and yourself?

Yeah, well, I m just,

well, when I took a picture,

I need to take a picture just because I need to see

what I am doing with my kids.

I need to share, I think that,

and share all or what happened to me with other ones.

So now I am family photographers.

I don t take picture, not too much of my sons,

but I still think that,

well, I don t know, it s like a opportunity to be here

and to be connected, have a project.

Yeah.

Amy, fantastic you re here.

I love Amy s work from day one.

And I have to say that also the image that we re using

as the symbol of the festival is by Amy,

so the image that you see around with a kid, it s yours.

And I think your style that it s so pure and organic

and it feels natural,

and there s never like something that is off,

you know, it is perfect.

The color palette, everything.

Tell me about your experiences,

about being a photographer in Australia

with maybe it s different, right, there.

It looks like there s so much nature,

and I don t know, like the timings, it seems different.

I don t know.

Yeah, I guess where we were at the time when, you know,

particularly when Eye Mama was starting to emerge

was sort of down by the coast,

but we were also hit by quite heavy restrictions

with like a five kilometer radius.

And so the need to kind of, you know,

deeply explore our inner circle

and kind of, you know, dive deep in the, you know,

in the domestic was kind of just an extension of that.

And I guess the work has just,

yeah, organically unfolded in that, I have two sons,

I have a six year old and a two year old.

And throughout the journey of motherhood,

I ve had quite a, like everybody else,

there s, you know, there can be breastfeeding challenges,

there can be so many things that kind of come up.

And for me, this portrait here is actually of my second son.

But it very much, it kind of refers back

to my first experience with, you know,

we had food intolerances, we had so many things

that meant that I had to restrict what I ate to breastfeed.

And so it kind of just reminded me of this like,

deeply symbiotic relationship that we, you know,

we obviously know that we share,

but it seems even more, you know,

pronounced when every single thing that you eat

is kind of, you know, affecting so much within the life.

And then, you know, 20 minute naps.

And that was it for him, you know, until he was about two.

So I kind of, I think back to that time

as just a complete haze of,

yeah, like, you know, sleep deprivation

and the time kind of really constricts

and grows at the same time.

And so when I look at, you know, my youngest,

I almost can t tell you know,

which era of motherhood the work came from.

But to connect with all of these deeply universal stories,

it s incredibly healing to kind of see this mirrored

in so many ways.

And also to see, you know, you almost think

some of the things that you re going through

can t possibly relate, you know, to anybody else.

And then suddenly, you know,

the next person you speak to

has the exact same timeline as you.

And it s almost, I heard someone speak about motherhood once

as this kind of, almost like a mycelial network of like,

you know, mushrooms that kind of have

this underground network of communication.

I wish I could remember who said it,

so if anybody knows, please let me know.

But it very much reminded me that there s this, you know,

deeply, you know, ancestral undercurrent.

And I really saw that kind of come up in this project

where there is, you know, so much similarity

yet so much contrast,

and just this really healing

kind of deeply connected energy throughout it.

So yeah.

Do you remember what you wrote to me once on Instagram?

We DMed a lot during lockdown,

and like, her timing was the opposite

and her seasons were the opposite,

but yet we would find ourselves online at similar times.

And I remember, I don t know if you remember this in.

I don t remember anything, I m also very jet lagged, so.

You wrote to me, I feel so helpless.

And I thought, isn t that an amazing circle

that you re here now showing this work,

and it just proves that you weren t, and you re not,

and we re not.

And I think that, you know, the sharing chain of visibility

is really crucial.

Sharing stories that are unseen, you know,

and finding yourself in other people s stories,

makes us feel less alone.

Makes us feel like we have a shared humanity.

And I think that s part of our job.

Absolutely.

And like, you know, even just the, you know,

the domestic still lives

that kind of just crop up in everybody s spaces,

and you ve just, you know, things might be just completely,

you know, feel like it s just falling apart

and then suddenly there s this beam of light

just illuminating this otherwise very mundane moment of,

you know, there s a beautiful photograph in the book

of like a nappy on a plate kind of bathed in sunlight,

and there s so many, you know,

if you are able to kind of, you know,

connect with those little almost,

you know, perfectly sculptural moments where it s just like,

whoa, that really just, you know,

that hit me at this particular moment,

and it just, you know, nothing,

nothing about anything I sort of see in this book

looks like it s, you know,

obviously there s a great deal of care and work,

but not like a, nothing forced.

It s all just yes, incredibly organic.

And I just, I love that it s emerged that way

and kind of follows the rhythms of motherhood in itself

in all of its messiness and you know,

magnificence and all of those things.

Thank you Amy.

Malin?

Yeah, for me it was the perfect timing

because I found you like 10 days postpartum,

and I remember it so well

that it was just organic through Instagram,

and I ve been photographing myself a lot

while I was pregnant, but not many other mothers.

And I felt very alone

cause I was pregnant when I was in COVID,

like lockdown, everything, and I was 25,

so no one around me had kids, nothing.

So I was like, I don t know anything about this.

So I was looking for kind of a community.

And yeah, Eye Mama made a community for me online,

so I was talking to many of you,

and it was just beautiful.

And that way my inspiration was fueled,

and I started photographing other mothers through that.

And yeah, so for me to photographs other mothers was just,

it was just so healing cause I connected with other

that was in my situation that I was lacking so much.

So yes, Eye Mama,

yeah, it changed my whole life actually, yeah.

You know, I was thinking now when you were talking about,

I don t know, cause again, I don t have kids,

I have two cats, but I don t think they count as kids.

I mean they do for me, but it s different.

And I m thinking maybe being a mom,

especially in the very first moments

of being with a kid that is just born,

and it must be a pretty lonely thing.

It s like you are, you must be there 24/7 for the kid,

And he doesn t talk, and you ve got, you haven t,

you must understand what you want.

I mean it is gotta be like a crazy thing.

I m already freaking out when my cat is not well

and I can t tell him what s happening and I freak out.

I can t even think,

Like a kid, and you don t know, and it s just you and him

and it s like you talk like,

[Alessia imitating baby noises]

for like months.

And so I think it must be amazing

that you are able to share your experience with other people

and you feel maybe you re not so alone, no?

Yeah because we ve also lost the village, you know?

It used to be that people lived in tribes,

the generations would take care of each other,

they would pass on this crucial information.

And now society is deemed that we are like in our DNA,

we ll just know how to raise kids

when actually it s not always the case.

Sometimes you have to grow into it,

and especially we tend to have professional lives

and transitioning from that identity to another identity

of a carer can be a big crisis as well as a big joy.

You have to figure it out,

especially with not much support in the community

and society around, you know, depending on where you live,

Nordic countries are better

but there s a lot of struggle in the states, you know,

in south, everywhere really.

So it can be scary and I think it can be lonely,

but it s also full of love, you know?

But I think in the end, sharing a lot more truth

and a lot more personal stories adds up

to a collective story

which can give some comfort and knowledge,

and kind of, you know,

a bigger statement about

what motherhood means today, you know, I think.

So tell us the truthful story now that you remember clearly.

So I knew you a bit from before,

like just slightly, not very well.

And then when COVID started,

we were suddenly locked in this apartment,

and the natural thing to do was just, you know,

there was no work, there was like nothing else,

we re just at home.

So both my partner is a filmmaker

and we just started documenting our life

because there was like nothing else to do.

And then you approached us

and you said you re starting this thing,

this project and send me images.

And then we started sending you loads of images.

Look at this, look at, you know,

this is what we did all day.

We were at home and we were making films,

and yeah, photography.

And for me, COVID was such a anxiety,

like all the anxiety just came out.

So just seeing this project come to life

and like having this, like seeing how authentic it is,

which I was,

and I think everybody were just craving at the time

to see something real.

We were all in our phones.

The world seemed like it s collapsing, at least in my,

and having this platform that was slowly building

and that it just showed life as it is.

You know, not all this fake Instagram, not.

And it was just really powerful to see it come alive.

And also having this community international

just come together.

It was really, for me, was a very powerful time

to have this come together.

Did you ever compete with your partner?

Because her partner s a photographer too,

and they re both mamas and they would both send me images,

and I would often like think like, who did I show last?

Should I like balance it?

No competition.

We worked together also.

So it was, yeah,

But it s really nice to see that as well

as like an intimate portrait of a family

that s not necessarily conventional

as a model of like family,

but also seeing it from both sides

who are both photographers is really fascinating

because you each had your own-

Vision. Take, yeah, exactly.

So I think that was really interesting for me.

So I don t really remember the exact moment

I discovered the Eye Mama projects,

but I remember the time period.

So my son was a newborn at the time,

so I spent a lot of time on my phone

because he was always attached to me breastfeeding,

and then he fell asleep

so I couldn t really do something else.

And that s when I found the project,

and it really struck a nerve immediately.

And I think it s because of two reasons.

So a lot of the images, they re so familiar,

you really recognize yourself in it.

It s acts as a mirror so you really feel seen,

and I think everybody wants to feel seen.

So that s an important part.

For example, the picture with the mother on the toilets

with her baby, I today discovered

that it was Iris s picture,

and yeah, it was so recognizable.

You don t have a lot of time for yourself.

You have to take your baby everywhere with you

when he s a newborn.

And so that s an important part.

But I think another part that s really important

and that really has broadened my horizon

was that the project is also a bit a window

into other people s lives

and people that are maybe have experiences

that are different from yours.

So I remember seeing a picture of,

I think her name was Leah von Dunn.

So she has a, they have a kid and her partner is trans.

So I started following her

and it was really interesting to see

because a lot of our experiences are probably similar

because as a parent it s a,

yeah, universal experience, but at the same time,

yeah they have specific other experiences that I don t have.

So it s, I think, important to have

that window into someone else s experience

and someone else s specifics

that you don t have to experience or can t experience.

And I think for our kids,

I mean for my son I want him to have mirrors, of course,

cause I want him to feel seen.

But I think it s important for him

to also have enough windows into other people s lives.

People that are not like him,

to feel more connection with others, and to feel,

to increase his empathy towards people

that are maybe not exactly like him,

but experience the same things

but maybe a little bit different.

So yeah, those two things, the windows and the mirrors,

I think that really attracted me towards the project.

And that s why when I see, like on Instagram,

the little circle with Eye Mama,

I always want to watch it immediately

because so many interesting things are shared.

I ve also read interesting books

because yeah, you shared them on there.

Like for example, The Mattress s Book of Lucy Jones.

I really loved it.

[Karni] That s a great book.

Because you shared it.

So yeah, it s really been very important

the last couple of years.

I love what you said about empathy

because I think one of the key things,

and I mention it to Alessia a lot,

and I think like it s our superpower, empathy.

It can also nearly be a curse.

Like as an artist and a mother and women,

sometimes you think you re feeling too much.

Like in particular, I m feeling it now

when there s a lot of hostility online

and duality and division.

But without it, we lose our humanity.

You know, we have to empathize

and imagine ourselves in other people s shoes

or we re doomed because you know, you mentioned Leah,

which is a really important story

and it s a trans dad that we have in the book.

And she said to me at the time how crucial it was

for her living in the States

having a lot of violence and a lot of law making

and resistance to her specific lifestyle

that felt very aggressive.

She wanted a place to showcase her story that felt safe.

And you know, weirdly,

even on Instagram is not a perfect platform in any way.

Anyone who manages a platform knows this.

We ve been censored endlessly, the platform s been removed.

But it s also a place where you can have a community

and you can give it a flavor.

And I think it really connected all our stories,

which are all very different,

but have a unique thread and really speak about

our humanity and empathy.

And that s very unifying.

But in it there s this duality

and the mix and the diversity

of all these different ways of living.

And you know, often women in South America

would write to me and say, we know you re struggling,

but we don t even have basic safety, you know?

And so I ve changed completely as a person myself

from being exposed to all these narratives.

And I think that exposing ourselves to more

is only gonna make us better humans

because we realize how intricate and detailed everything is,

how beautiful, sometimes how ugly, how heartbreaking.

But seeing it and realizing all these different stories,

you know, connect us.

And I think it s like really crucial in that sense, so.

Yeah, I think it s, you know, I think we as a society,

and wish we could be doing so much more

to support women,

and this goes really not just in motherhood, but everything.

I think there is, yes, we ve made progress,

but there is still so much to do, you know,

and the differences are just too big and unjust.

And again, what you re saying about having a support system,

where is the support system

and why do women always have to pay the price, you know?

And it s so difficult to overcome this.

And I think exactly COVID

has showed this at a very like super high level now

because it brought everything out there for everyone to see

that the burden was on the women mainly, right?

Because how can you be doing everything?

I remember going on Zoom with my colleagues

and they had, you know, the kids and the thing

and they had to be on the Zoom

and do, and exactly where is the support?

And I mean this is great

cause we re all supporting each other.

It s women supporting other women.

But I feel that this should be also a call

for all the governments out there and the men out there,

and to really try to balance things out.

Cause it s not a given, it s not that, you know,

it s like, okay, make a kid and then your life should,

anything else in your life should just disappear.

Cause that s not just, this doesn t happen to men, no?

And you re right.

I think that, you know, often in photography festivals

or in book launch events,

I meet people and they re like, well I m not a parent,

so, you know, it s not on my agenda.

But I m like, well are you a child of someone?

Because this thing of like saying

only parents own parenting or care is an issue

because in humanity,

I m all for women and men and anyone else, you know,

whatever they are choosing,

whether they wanna have kids or not.

And dads are definitely part of raising our kids,

and you know, we need them to help us through it.

But also I remember in the book fair

that I had at Martin Parrs, a photo festival,

a book festival in the UK,

and a young guy walked up and said,

I think I need this book for myself, the Eye Mama book.

And it was the first book that was bought that day.

And I said, You made my day.

You ve realized something visionary,

like you ve seen the future.

Like this isn t just for us, it s not like some sort,

I mean of course it s therapeutic for us

and it s good to share,

but in some ways it s more important to have it out there,

to have people engaging with it,

whether it s in, you know, workplaces or hospitals

to be able to enable carers and mothers and women

to get more involved and be more empowered, you know?

And I think it could be seen by everyone.

And you know, I think we re also,

sorry I don t want to interrupt,

but it s about making visible an invisible job,

because it s like, this is like so much work to be a mom,

so much work.

But it s an invisible job.

Totally hidden.

It is like when you take care of the house, right?

It s a lot of work.

We all experienced that during COVID, right?

Like plus, you know, I m super like obsessed

about cleaning and things,

so, and you know, I was like cleaning all day,

and then Zoom, and this and that,

and then you need to clean cause no one helps.

And imagine, and all these invisible jobs

finally become visible.

But also you re taking care of your mother, let s say.

You know, care has this invisibility generally

cause it happens behind closed doors.

People don t know what burden you are carrying,

how much work you are doing behind these closed doors.

But somebody has to do it, cause care has to happen,

and you know, I think caring about care is key.

[Alessia] Yeah.

It s not just parenting, you know?

[Alessia] Absolutely.

And God knows we are not advocating to have kids.

We are the last person to push anyone to have kids,

you know, but it s, you have to look at care

and whether that s for older people.

Yeah, yeah.

It s important to shift the perspective

because we live in a society where we measure things

in this horrible capitalist system that we are in

in terms of productivity, in terms of PIL,

and this, numbers, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And where are the numbers for,

I mean, we wouldn t be here

if we didn t have a mother put us here.

So how do we measure this

and how do we give the proper value to this?

We all have mothers and fathers

that eventually one day we take care of.

And that s another thing.

And so where does this go into the economy and the equation?

Cause at the end, isn t it about living, being alive?

And so I feel that all of these hidden jobs,

they should be valued, they should have a value,

they should have a market sort of, you know what I mean?

If we need to measure everything like this, you know,

we need to show it.

And now we also, you still need to

because then I have another question

that I wanna ask Karni.

Then I want to also leave space for questions and things.

But you didn t answer about your experience

about motherhood and yeah.

Thank you.

I discovered Eye Mama

when I was in lockdown with my daughter,

and she was two years old

and she was crazy because she was two years old.

And it was very important for me

because I realized that I had a project,

and not only memory shoot,

because I have a very conceptual relationship

with the camera.

And when I become mother,

I realized that I can use the camera only for a memory.

And I add a lot of shoot, I had a lot of pictures,

but when I discovered the Eye Mama,

I realized that I had a little project about motherhood

and I think it s very important

because it gave me freedom to use the camera.

And now I have a project with the other women,

and for me it s the most important.

[Karni] This is an image that she made with--

I m sorry for my English.

No, it s perfect.

We re all--

But I try because I want to connect with the Eye Mama.

[Alessia] That s her image.

This is an image that you created

with your motherhood photography with AI.

Because if you look closely,

this mother has three hands.

And this got a lot of reactions online

when we put it on Eye Mama.

I like to break my own rules, you know,

and I put it on and I think women who followed Eye Mama

weren t expecting it, but I was like,

I like it because it s a metaphor for motherhood as well.

[Alessia] Yes, absolutely.

It has a reality there, it has a vulnerability,

but it stops you in your tracks.

It makes you think.

It looks a little alien, a little bit disturbing.

And it got so many reactions online,

and I realized coming back to AI

and the topic of the festival, what makes us human,

looking at AI through the lens of motherhood in Eye Mama

was also fascinating.

And talking about these like undercurrents of care

in a way that s really arresting

and a little bit disturbing in a way, you know,

that grabs your attention

because we are bombarded by so much imagery

we can hardly feel or think anymore.

And I think actually paying attention to detail

and creating works that is subversive and make you think

are like really crucial to engage with a topic, you know?

Yeah, I agree with you 100%.

Listen, the other thing I was thinking

always in terms of issues of representation

and who s telling stories, you know,

definitely in the past, the narrative has been dominated

by male, white male, western, white male.

And then things changed luckily.

I d say about 10 years ago

we started finally seeing more voices of women.

And so we started talking about female gaze, right?

Which it is actually movement started a bit before that,

but then became more,

I don t wanna say mainstream, I hope mainstream,

but it s not yet there.

So one thing that I wanted to ask you, Karni,

and if any other of you have an opinion on that

is how the mama gaze relates to the female gaze

and what are like the similarities and or what is different?

I mean, it s an interesting question.

You know, I think I just made the book and the project

that I was missing, that I was looking for.

So, you know, my group tends to be women in motherhood

cause that was the stage I was in.

But every artist tends to relate

usually to that stage therein in life.

But I feel, you know, often I get asked,

is it a feminist project?

Because weirdly, this is the really bizarre twist

in life, right?

Like motherhood isn t deemed as like a feminist topic

because like women don t wanna be seen as only breeders,

which we are not meant to be seen as and we don t want to.

What I m saying is the last thing I want

is for everyone to have kids.

I think we need to choose our own way in life

and make our own decisions.

But if we do choose to be mothers,

as women, we need to be empowered to do so.

And I think it s a better sisterhood

to support both having children and not having children.

And I think the more women unite

to create these more collective projects,

like men don t tend to group as much as women do.

I think we do better in groups.

I don t know what it is,

but at least this has shown me that we can,

there s power in numbers,

and in a lot of narratives coming together.

And you know,

so in my mind, it s definitely a feminist project.

And also, whether you work while you have young kids

or you don t work, whether you leave your photography

on the side for a while and come back to it,

maybe you re just digesting.

In the early years, I say it s like being in the forest

and you don t see the light yet.

You re like in a deep forest, you re a little bit lost.

At least this was my experience,

and I love my kids to bits, but there s no guide.

They don t come with a guide.

It s not like a camera.

And so you wait for the light

and then slowly they grow up a bit

and you transition into this job of yours

and transition into what it means to be a woman.

What does it mean to be a mother and a woman?

What does it mean to be a mother, a woman,

and a photographer and an artist?

And it s this weird puzzle that you have to assemble

a lot of times in a very isolated, lonely way

and against all odds.

Like often women drop out of the workforce

when they have kids,

or they don t have kids

when they re in the workforce because it seems impossible.

And then often women who do the both feel very guilty,

and like they fail a lot because we do fail a lot.

[Alessia] Or you re being judged like--

Or we re being judged.

I think for instance,

a friend of mine who s a super talented photographer

is Lynsey Addario.

I guess you all know her.

She s like a super photojournalist.

She s a war photographer.

And in any case, exactly, you re criticized.

Cause if you go and take pictures and you re pregnant,

they re gonna look at you badly.

Or if you leave your kid at home with your husband

to go on an assignment, you are a bad mother.

You know, it s like, ah, so many prejudice

that we need to dismantle, it s incredible.

Because all the jobs are on us, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Even the fact that, you know,

I m here without my children, you know, two and six,

it s the first time I ve left both of them.

But you know, the kind of push and pull

between that was huge

because it s like, okay, you know,

do I make this step away and feel that,

given that sense of, you know,

my partner becoming the, you know,

primary caregiver for the week,

and it s, yeah, you re judged if you do,

you re judged if you don t.

It s, you know, going back to, you know,

it being a feminist issue as,

you know, there s so many elements of motherhood

that are sort of yet to really come into that narrative.

Particularly I m seeing a lot more discussion about,

you know, obstetric violence

and, you know, birth trauma in a lot of arenas

at the moment.

But it s still, yes, due to the nature of care work

and the unseen nature of it,

it s still, yeah, hugely kind of pushed into this corner

where it s still gathering dust.

We still need to, you know, bring that forward.

Thank you.

Yes, I think that this is such an important topic,

the idea of not feeling judged,

and the idea of not feeling guilty

because maybe you are a mother,

but maybe you also want to be an artist

and there s nothing wrong with it really.

And you should try to do your best but,

and try to get as much more help as you can because--

And Instagram, by the way, has not been very helpful

in that journey, right?

Because you are looking at influencers.

[Alessia] Oh please.

And you know, motherhood influencers,

I never really looked at them.

In the UK it s not as big in the US,

but some US women who wrote books,

you know, talked about these influencers,

and I went to just like research it.

And you know, I wanna respect them because it s still work.

But I think it should come with a disclaimer.

Like this is not real motherhood.

This has been manufactured,

this has a team of art directors.

I ve worked hard to dress everyone

really nicely for the shot

and create this fantasy of motherhood.

And that s fine, maybe it s got a place,

but what it usually does is it shames other women

into feeling less good about their motherhood

if they re not juggling apple pies on their toes

and wearing like white linen,

some kind of fantastical imaginary scenario.

And the same goes with body image.

I mean there s so many knock on effects

of like post motherhood body

and sharing real bodies, you know?

And I think in a way when the narrative

is infused with motherhood and care

as much as it s infused,

maybe like diversity and body shapes and sizes

took a while to infiltrate the system.

I so agree with what you re saying,

meaning exactly motherhood.

There are still too many taboos about it.

No, it s a bit like with disability.

Like if you are a disabled person,

you shouldn t be a sexual being, right?

There are these kind of things

that are still very,

like you cannot say about motherhood,

anything that is not perfection.

I m so happy that I had like 10 kids

and I wanna have other five.

And if you say no, I don t wanna have the 15 kids,

then you re a monster, right?

So yeah, I think what you guys are doing,

guys meaning not guys, but whatever,

it s so incredibly important.

It s so valuable and I really wanna thank you

for doing this.

And first and foremost, of course, Karni

just because, exactly, she--

And I wanna thank you

because I think like supporting you supporting me,

me supporting them,

I think everyone needs a cheerleader.

And God knows, you know

I ve need some cheerleading moments,

you know, like now I m up on the stage,

but there were some dramas, you know?

Getting a project off the ground is never easy.

It s never simple.

There s a lot of disappointments.

There was times where I was on the floor crying literally.

And you need to pick yourself up

and just realize that there s a longer journey,

a longer mission.

And that if it was easy,

it would ve been done a long time ago, I guess.

Like sometimes you have to fight for things, you know?

And so I think you encouraged me,

and you know, gave me advice when I needed it.

And I think we should do that more

as women and as just humans.

Yeah, yeah.

It s a chain of love again.

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alessia] And care, again, as you said.

Yeah.

And all these women trusting me as well.

Like this is a collective vision

with a lot of great talent and great photography.

They had to trust me that they were in good hands

to put it in the project, to put it in the book.

No money was exchanged

in the whole two years of the project.

[Alessia] I know.

So it s kind of this very delicate balance

of trust and sharing, you know, as a collective I guess.

Thank you Karni.

Thank you all, really.

I just wanna leave some time for questions, so.

[audience applauding]

So Please don t be shy.

Kennedy, who s in the book,

now, I didn t wanna bring it up,

but Kennedy Carter is also one of the mamas in the book.

And you have a question.

[Kennedy] Hi y all.

I wrote my question down cause I get real nervous.

But I became a mother within the last year,

and photographing my son

has become just a bigger part of my practice.

But my question for y all is,

just how do you navigate centering

the autonomy of your children

within your collaboration with them

and within your own practices?

Thank you.

That s a really important question right now.

I think you guys should answer it

cause I m-

Yeah, I mean, I could say a few words.

I mean, only from my own personal perspective.

Like I have a very strongly collaborative, you know,

kind of practice with my son, like my eldest.

He s amazing in that he has observed me working over,

you know, his entire life.

And so he now notices the light

and will pull me towards things,

and he will show me things that he wants me to see

and then wants to see how I ve seen them as well.

So I think it can be really,

it can be a really wonderful way to connect as well.

And there are certainly times

when he knows I m coming for him

and he does not want a part of it.

And that has to be, yeah, that has to be respected.

And as he s getting older, you know,

starting to give him a lot more, you know,

control over, you know, how he s depicted and perceived.

But yeah, it s just, it has been really organic

as he s gotten older and understood more

about what I m doing

and felt that he really wants to be a part of that too.

And then he s started to turn the camera on me,

so he took a portrait of me recently

that made it into an exhibition that he s really proud of.

So it s amazing to have that thread kind of run through.

Yeah.

Does anyone else wanna add?

I have a two year old

and he is already picking up the camera at home.

Very curious being, he s a very curious being,

but he is like, oh, can I take some photos?

Yeah, it s very cute.

So I think it s the same as you,

like when they see you working and doing these things

and they can probably pick up your energy while doing it.

It s just, yeah, a nice collaborate way

for both of us to connect,

and I think it s a very beautiful experience for both of us

and I m really happy looking back

that I did it while he was still so young

and still doing it,

even though it s way harder now

than when he was just like a tiny little baby.

But yeah, it s really, really nice.

Yeah.

Yeah, it s sort of fostered

this like deep, deep attention,

particularly in my eldest,

and I know every child s completely different

but it s lovely to see, you know,

yeah, the depth of his noticing.

It s wonderful.

And I wanna say that just to touch,

I don t know if you are also

like asking in the undercurrent,

there s also I guess an issue

with Instagram and the influencer culture,

which I think is very separate

from what Eye Mamas are doing,

where essentially the Eye Mamas in the book

are photographers firstly,

and then they will also document their children.

But if you are doing an influencer job on a daily basis

showcasing your children,

and you are managing, like art directing it daily,

I feel there is probably limitations

that you yourself as a parent should put on that

and that possibly society,

and you know, there should be rules about this,

like watchdogs.

I mean Instagram is also the wild west, hey?

It s not like all cozy, as you probably well know.

We haven t had much trolling, like touch wood,

but I think it s because maybe we re like, you know,

90% we are women and artists,

and I think there s a very,

it s like maybe in the undercurrent as well,

but influencers get a lot of attention worldwide,

and that can be not a safe environment, you know?

And I think there s also, I think every woman

should decide for herself,

but there should probably also be guidelines,

just like with AI,

there s more and more sharing

with more and more children, you know?

And it s obvious that the robots and the algorithms

are not the greatest way to assess.

I had this idea to employ grannies.

I think grannies would be much better than the algorithms

because grannies know what s wholesome more than probably,

you know, we get removed a lot for like breastfeeding,

and yet I ll see a butt, like sexy images all the time

or like inappropriate stuff all the time, so.

[Alessia] Or violence.

Or violence or, you know,

breastfeeding is not the danger of humanity, right?

We all know that.

It s being treated as that on Instagram.

Well not even a naked body, it should be.

Exactly, not natural nudity either.

I mean we ve got way bigger problems

than that in the world, you know?

Listen, one thing that Kennedy s question

brought to my mind is I m interested to see,

I mean I m sure that there is a moment when these babies

become aware that you re taking the pictures,

and there must be a big change, right, in that relationship.

Can I answer?

Sorry, because with your question, it just came to my mind

the many, many pictures I didn t take,

not the ones that I took.

So I have such a collection in my mind

that all the pictures that I saw and said, Oh, I wish.

And so many times that I took my camera off

and I just put it away

because my kid was saying, No photo.

So, and not only that, the ones that I didn t take,

but also the ones that I didn t share.

So I think that it s very, very important

to remind ourselves always

that life is so much richer than what we see.

And also that what we see

is really what we actually ended up managing to do

and to share.

So I think that it s even more important

what we don t photograph than what we actually photograph.

Anyone else wants to add to this, no?

Maybe we have time for maybe one more question

if people have other questions.

Yes.

[Speaker 1] Thank you first of all

for that project for that book.

Does it work?

I don t know, it s not working, the microphone.

I can also add something to the previous question.

The photo that I shared in the book,

I took it during COVID,

and I was struggling for like a really long time.

Do I share it?

Do I not share it?

This whole idea of also exposing my daughter on a platform

like Instagram, like how do I feel about it?

Is it okay?

Is it like, you know,

she doesn t give her consent, she s like two years old.

So I was, for a really long time struggling with it.

And also now I m working on a documentary

which deals with her and with motherhood,

and constantly it s this like question like of

do I want to expose her

and like put her out in this world of like,

that can be really scary in a way,

you know, like this, yeah.

So that s a question I m dealing with constantly.

I think we just live in a world that s largely hostile

to children and mothers.

And so we see that then reflected in the online environment

where we re constantly in public

trying to keep children quiet and under control

and apologizing for their presence.

And we live in a world where, you know,

it s, yeah, it is just very hostile to the mother child

or parent child dyad.

And that, my good friend Lily always said,

oh, she said that, you know, obviously if we ve, you know,

lacking kind of safety in real life,

it s reflected in, you know, the online space.

It s just very reflective

of the attitudes towards mothers in general.

Also now with like the war

in the Middle East and everything,

like the terrible that s happening with children there,

it s like, it brought me like to think like,

I don t want to expose her, I want like to hide her

and that no one will ever know who she is,

and you know, like all these fears come up

because you want to protect them.

And it s just, yeah, like a constant battle.

[Speaker 1] Okay, now it works.

Perfect, thank you.

Yeah, what I wanted to say is,

thank you first of all for all the pictures you share

and the insights.

And the question I have is actually to all of you,

or the project itself,

how do you see it going forward

for pushing more for feminism, for equality,

and putting women more in the front?

Well, I think it s this amplification thing, you know,

I think you have to start with a seed.

And my particular seed happened to be

motherhood in photography.

That s what I could showcase.

You know, I m not a politician.

God knows, I don t wanna be,

but I could do this one little thing, invisibility.

And I think that in the end you can t empower the invisible.

So in some ways you have to start

from the storytelling outward,

and that can lead to legislation and movement.

And already movements from the States

have come to me saying, we are gonna push for paid leave.

We might need these images to support it

because you know, you also can t be what you can t see.

So all of these kind of like nearly cliche sayings,

they have a strong grounding in the truth.

And I think our job in particular as artists, you know,

we are not gonna go to the Senate,

but we might share a different narrative

that might change a few people s minds, you know?

And that has a knock on effect.

And I think it does have power.

I mean, we ve seen photography change the world,

images of war, you know,

Si just brought up what s happening now.

I can hardly look at Instagram right now.

I really feel like leaving it all together,

because the violence and horrific,

I feel like the light s been stolen,

the medium of photography has been stolen from me for evil.

But what we can do is we can bring connectivity

and love and connection back into it

and we can search for light again

and share that, you know, to protect children

and share the fact

that we all want to be more human and share our humanity.

So, you know, when you say what can it change

and how we see it moving forward, you know,

if we have a book, and then an exhibition,

and then an article, and then maybe a documentary

which we re working on,

and you know, and each mother here

has her own strand, and Alessia,

and then you guys are exposed to it

and you mention it to someone, you know?

So this kind of, and social media is great in that sense

because it has this spreading ability.

But we have to work hard

and much harder than, especially now to spread light

because I feel like the dark

has definitely taken over right now

and none of us can sleep.

I can say that for sure.

You know, while so many kids are suffering

and the world seems really dark, you know,

I think we just need to share a lot more

of these sorts of projects.

You know, things like Alessia s sharing,

like we are sharing,

and it will have a knock on effect.

You know, I don t know if anyone has anything to add

in the sense of like how it can change.

Maybe something to add regarding the equality,

because sometimes as woman we may have

the knee-jerk reaction to see what can we do differently.

But I think we should also rally

our husbands and our brothers to help us.

I mean, for example, my husband, he really helps a lot.

It s not that the bit of maternal instinct.

We are the primary caregiver.

It doesn t always have to be like that.

We have to try.

We can divide it equally.

For example, my husband,

I wouldn t say that I m the primary caretaker.

We are, we both divide it equally.

So if we try to, maybe it s a bit idealistic,

but if we try to,

yeah, the people around us to join our goals.

Also we re raising boys, right?

Like a lot of us have boys.

So I feel like what we re showing

the next generation is really crucial.

How you raise your children, how you raise your boys.

And already they re seeing us as mothers, you know,

we are feeding that to them.

So definitely everyone can have a part of that.

Okay, then thank you so much.

Thank you so much to all of you today.

[audience applauding]

We are recording.

So this will be all online

and then you re gonna be sharing it with the world

if you want to.

Okay.

Thank you, thank you.

[audience applauding]